Episode 89: The Menopause with Nutritionist and Health Coach, Lisa G
Lisa believes in using food as medicine.
“The starting point for me with clients, if appropriate, is to balance out stress levels. I like to work holistically, it’s never ever just about the food you eat it’s all about small sustainable changes.”
I met Lisa on a retreat. She hosted my welcome interview and instinctively knew I was on the edge of burn out. I was so comforted by her warmth and expertise that I invited her onto the podcast.
From a young age Lisa suffered with polycystic ovaries and severe hormonal imbalances. After an early surgical menopause she was left unsupported and alone.
Lisa is a menopausal hormone expert and because of her own experiences dedicated to supporting women through any “hormonal storm”.
We talked about hormones and menopause but had so much to say that we may well record some more.
Stay tuned!
EPISODE TIMESTAMPS:
[01:09] - Lisa's Personal Health Journey
[02:30] - Understanding Polycystic Ovaries and Insulin Resistance
[06:33] - Navigating Menopause: Lisa's Experience
[12:58] - The Role of Hormones in Women's Health
[18:28] - The Impact of Hormonal Changes on Mental and Physical Health
[31:44] - Breaking the Silence on Women's Health
[32:26] - Understanding the Microbiome
[34:45] - The Role of Testosterone in Women's Health
[36:42] - Navigating Menopause
[37:28] - The Importance of Hormone Research and Testing
[41:07] - Holistic Approaches to Health and Wellness
[46:38] - The Power of Nutrition and Lifestyle Changes
[54:01] - Embracing Menopause as a New Beginning
CONNECT WITH LISA G:
THANK YOU FOR LISTENING!
If you enjoyed this episode, please let us know your thoughts on Instagram @lovethisfoodthing and consider leaving an honest review and rating for the show - we’d be extremely grateful.
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EPISODE #89 TRANSCRIPT:
Jemma: Welcome to Love This Food Thing podcast. I'm Gemma. This is the place where we explore our relationship with food, be it friend or foe, and how this affects our behavior. Here's today's episode. Welcome back to Love This Food Thing podcast. I'm delighted to be joined by Lisa g. We're both feeling a bit crazier this morning.
It's very hot in the city, very hot. Lisa is a registered nutritional therapist and health coach. Can't see 'cause my contact lens has just slipped. Who specializes in helping women navigate the menopause and her purpose is to educate, guide, and support her clients during what can often be an a hormonal storm.
She firmly believes that what we eat. How we feel and think are interconnected. We can't have one without the other. Quote unquote. Lisa, welcome to Love This Food Thing podcast. I'm delighted to be here. I am officially all over the place sorting out microphone stands, pressing the wrong buttons, sweating from the gym, all that kind of thing.
It's lovely to have you here. And I met Lisa on a retreat, which I, I think I did at the beginning, sort of second week of June, and had this amazing. Interview with her entrance interview and just, I think within about five or 10 minutes went, my God, you've gotta come on the podcast. 'cause Lisa knows everything and she says it in such a way that you're like, yes, I can do this.
That makes sense. So let's do the, the, the usual thing, which is, is talk about your relationship with food. Yes. And I know that you've done a bit of homework, well done and had a little think, and now you know what's gonna happen. You're gonna say the opposite of what you thought you might say 'cause that's what happens.
How would you describe your relationship with food as a friend or as a foe? I, I think
Lisa: initially my answer was absolutely as a friend. Mm-hmm. But then I thought about it. Mm-hmm. Which maybe I shouldn't not, but I did. Mm-hmm. And I realized that there have been times in my life where it's been a foe. Okay.
Times where my stress has been higher. My nervous system is sort of dysregulated or imbalanced. Okay. Food became not so much as a friend, it just became give me, give me, give me, give me, give me, and it doesn't matter what you give me. Oh, as in, talk me through that a bit. What do you mean? So. There have been times because my health history very, very briefly, yeah.
Grew up with polycystic ovaries.
Jemma: Oh, did you? As a
Lisa: kid? As a, yeah, as a teenager. Wow. Wow. So. Polycystic ovaries, it's a bit like a chicken and an egg does insulin resistance, which means that your body can't process insulin. Yeah. Cause polycystic ovaries. Or does polycystic ovaries cause insulin resistance?
So whatever you eat. You want your craving more and more sugar because the glucose isn't going into your cells.
Jemma: Okay,
Lisa: so now I, you know, I've obviously got that under control. I've educated myself, but there have been times when food has been more of a, once I start eating, I can't stop eating because my nervous system.
Isn't in balance. So you're never satisfied? I'm never satisfied. So my stress hormones are through the roof.
Jemma: Right.
Lisa: And because my stress hormones are through the roof, my blood glucose is through the roof.
Jemma: And are we talking about cortisol specifically? We're talking about
Lisa: cortisol, exactly. Okay. Um, and are you eating sugary foods?
Once I start with a bit of sugar, it's like there's no, there's no plug, there's no even in
Jemma: an
Lisa: apple. It depends, right? So it depends how my nervous system is regulated as to whether food is a friend or a foe. Okay. If that makes sense. Yeah, it makes complete sense. Yes. But I think ultimately food is absolutely a friend and I absolutely love it.
Jemma: I mean, having polycystic ovaries as a teenager is really quite something.
Lisa: It was actually, and I think it was sort of the beginning. Of my health journey, and it took me years to come to terms with it because polycystic Aries can lead to missed periods,
Jemma: right?
Lisa: So I would go through six, eight months of no period.
And that to me was really, really difficult because that's something, to me, having a period shows us that our body is working. As it as it should be.
Jemma: What, so you felt like that even as a teenager? Yeah,
Lisa: absolutely.
Jemma: You knew something was up?
Lisa: Absolutely. Yeah.
Jemma: What, um, what happened to your emotional self
Lisa: during that, that, that time?
I think it became, I think I found it very challenging. My self-esteem was very low. Um, I put on weight, I. I didn't, you know, there, there's so many different symptoms with polycystic ovarian syndrome. Mine was particularly putting on weight and missing periods.
Jemma: What are the other symptoms like syndrome, opportunism,
Lisa: acne?
Yes. I, I didn't get, I, fortunately I didn't get any of that, but I got the skip periods, which made me, it didn't make me feel feminine. Ah, and because of the weight gain and because. Before a period, there's a, there's a time of sort of that when the progesterone rises, the body needs glucose. Yes. To work optimally.
Progesterone allows the body to work optimally, but if you are going through a stage of your sex hormones, your estrogen and progesterone and testosterone are imbalanced. You never have that sort of cutoff from what's going on. So I was constantly. Craving sugar.
Jemma: Ah.
Lisa: So I never like, I don't know if you ever felt it when you had a period, like you get a period and it's like your body shedding.
Yeah.
Jemma: Such a long time
Lisa: ago. Exactly. Since I
Jemma: had a period. Exactly. But yes, of course. But it's
Lisa: like that shedding. But if you, you always think that you are about to get a period. Yeah. So you are eating those comfort foods. And it never comes. You don't stop eating those comfort foods.
Jemma: And also you are backed up with all that unreleased emotion, aren't you?
Lisa: Unreleased emotion. Absolutely. So it was, it was really challenging.
Jemma: So when this, I'm jumping forward and then we're gonna come back to what we're talking about. Yeah. When I started going into many po, many, many pauses, many, many pauses. We call it many pauses here.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Many, many pauses.
Jemma: Perimenopausal. I went to see an iridologist.
Yeah. 'cause I had this fan. I have this fantastic functional doctor, so we did all the alternative natural stuff that you can do before I ended up where I am, which I'll tell you about later. And he looked, this iridologist looked into my eyes and he said he could see my hormonal profile or my lack of hormones.
Not only that, he could see. My mother's lack of a hormonal profile and my grandmother's, he said, I can see that matriarchal line. Um, so my question to you is, do you know, so he said you were born with, um, unregulated, probably the wrong phrase. You'll correct me. Hormones and not enough of hormones. Yeah.
Dysregulated. Yeah, dysregulated. Thank you. Particularly progesterone. Um. Do you know anything about that side of your family, about your mom, about your grandmother? Do you, do you, my
Lisa: grandmother, uh, my mom had a surgical, she had a hysterectomy at 50, but that was due to heavy bleeding. Uh, my grandmother at 42, I think, had the same problem that I did.
So, yeah, I mean, there's obviously you are sort of the. It all comes down the line. I mean, the amount of eggs you have Yeah. Really comes from your grandmother, your great-grandmother. Yeah. And how
Jemma: they, how they, how their health was. Yeah.
Lisa: And iridology. I mean, I, I don't know a lot about iridology, but it sort of makes sense.
I mean, on a sort of a layman's terms or, I dunno if this is layman's terms, but it's what I think your eyes, your windows to your soul. Yeah, of course. Your eyes say. Everything.
Jemma: And then as a teenager, yeah. Yes, of course they do. Yeah. As a teenager then if your hormones are being disrupted, dysregulated anyway, then if you add disordered eating into the mix.
It's a real, uh, storm. I know we've used hormonal storm, absolute storm. Your endocrine system just pings outta shape. I mean, your body's incredible that you can actually come back from that. So anyway, back to you. Oh, it's about me. This one. I love it being about you. I feel like I'm having, having about a private session, so, okay.
So really quite challenging for you as a teenager, but was this a thing that pivoted you? On the road to being a nutritionist?
Lisa: Or how did all that happen? I think I sort of very much had a career. I was a magazine publisher. I run my own business networking event company. Oh. And then when I was in my mid forties, mm, I had a massive, uh, well it, fortunately it was a benign tumor on my ovaries.
I wanna, so, so I had to have. Surgical menopause. Ah. And I was 46 and an early menopause is 45. So I was literally on the cusp. Okay. And I went into menopause and I don't think I have ever felt so alone because this is 14 years ago now.
Jemma: Right.
Lisa: And it wasn't talked about. Mm-hmm. I mean, now there is. An abundance of knowledge out there.
We can all, if we choose, learn to educate ourselves on the menopause. These days. The amount of books out there, it's being spoken about. Everywhere it's being in Parliament Ex. Exactly. In schools it, it's everywhere. But I felt so alone and although they automatically put me on hormone replacement therapy because a surgical menopause is aligned to having your water supply literally cut off overnight.
Right. You have no preparation, nothing. Everything is just gone overnight. So they put me on HRT, but no one actually sat down and explained to me what was gonna happen. None of my friends were going through it at the same time.
Jemma: That happened to me. That's isolating, isn't it? It because they're looking at you going, I don't wanna hear this.
What are you talking about? It was so unbearably lonely and so can I. There's a correlation isn't there? Between, yeah. Being 46. Yeah. And being a teenager. Yeah. The kind of bookend nature of it, the whole my, the feelings that you had
Lisa: whole, everything that's happened in my health has happened around my reproductive health.
Okay. Everything. Okay. That's my weak spot.
Speaker 4: Ah.
Lisa: And so I think, and then sort of a couple of years later, I was thinking, how do I want my life to look moving forward? And it wasn't running. Networking events and I thought, what am I really interested in? Yeah, and it was always using food as a medicine, but more importantly, being able to help people that were in my situation.
And never to feel as alone as I did.
Jemma: Was that real motivator?
Lisa: 100%. Yeah. Which is why I do menopause nutrition, or I do, you know, women's health, but menopause is my real thing because it was such a lonely journey for me. And yes, I absolutely had some support and I really did. I had the most incredible acupuncturist.
Um, but it, it was still very lonely and there were so many things that happened with my health after that. That took me years, and to be honest, I'm still working with, right? Yeah, of course. Because the early mepo menopause is gonna affect so many areas of your health and somebody that had sort of a dysregulated system due to polycystic ovaries.
I was imbalanced to start with before the menopause, and that sort of catapulted me and it's, I'm a work in process every day I'm learning new things or learning to be intuitive. And being able to understand what's going on in my body so
Jemma: much to say, I dunno where to start. I'm just like staring at you, drinking it all in.
What do I want to say? Okay. So when you had your surgical menopause, can we just clear up the definition Yes. In case anyone doesn't know?
Lisa: Absolutely. So surgical menopause is when your womb and your ovaries are taken away.
Jemma: Okay.
Lisa: But you can have a. You can have a hysterectomy. So you can take your womb away, but keep your ovaries.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Lisa: I had a com, everything was taken out for me because of what happened. And I said I had one massive tumor on one ovary. The other ovary was squashed with another tumor. Were these dermoid cysts? No. They were tumors. They were tumors. They were precancerous tumors. Ah, okay. And you know. What's interesting now is that I wish somebody would've sat down because it was pre-cancerous.
They don't know which way it's gonna turn. They've got no idea. Uh, it's like, it's called, it was, it was actually called borderline, right? Borderline cancer. Mm-hmm. So they don't know which way it's gonna turn. Now I'm more educated, would I have gone through with the surgery? I, it's a question I can't answer, but I wish I had known more at the time.
I mean, literally I was given the diagnosis and the next day I was rushed in because they didn't know, you know, I'm very fortunate. I didn't need chemo, I didn't need radio. And I feel utterly blessed about that.
Jemma: Yes. And we have to extract what we can. What do you think about tumors? I'm gonna tell you what I think about tumors.
Yeah. I think, 'cause I have a body that likes to squirrel emotions away and you know, even like having a skin tag is like a little tiny tumor, isn't it? Yeah. Maybe not. Yeah. Scientifically. Yeah. And I think tumors are about secrets and. Buried emotions. Absolutely. And your body's in, your body's just trying to be infinitely intelligent and, and, and store what it's unable to get rid of through another system.
I What are your
Lisa: thoughts about tumors? A hundred, i I think the body is the most remarkable machine. Yeah. There is. Yeah. And I think what happens is, and it's, it's sort of what you said about traumas is that. Something will happen to us. I call them wounds. I like the word we, we, we have these internal wounds.
Some are bigger than others, and we sort of protect those wounds internally.
Jemma: Yeah.
Lisa: And we, we bury them away and our body over time will start whispering to us and it will whisper really, really, really gently. Then it starts screaming to us. Yeah. In the form of a tumor. Yeah. Yeah. In the form of anything that's dysregulated.
Yes. So I think Absolutely. And I think cancer is not something that happens to us. It's something that happens within us. Right. Like with any dis-ease. Yeah. You break down the word disease. Yes, I do a lot. Yes. Dise, that's happening. Within the body. And my health history is all about something that happened to me when I was younger.
And I, I see. It's like somebody, once I went to see the most spectacular, um, I used to live in America. Mm. And I went to see the most amazing, uh, functional medicine doctor. So this was back in my thirties and it was like somebody had taken a black and white picture and I was watching this movie. I could see, and that's why everything in me is with my reproductive organs.
So it, it's, yeah, I, I think that what happens within us is a sign of, I'm not saying with every single person and with Dise disease
Speaker 4: mm-hmm.
Lisa: Because there's some things that are genetic
Speaker 4: mm-hmm. That
Lisa: we, we literally have no control over.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Lisa: Mm-hmm. But. I think, yeah, I think it's the body protecting, holding on and then it will scream and it will erupt.
Jemma: So my take on my eating disorders, and it's not so for everyone's eating disorders, although I think it is for a majority of people, is that manifestation of physical symptoms because of the internal dis?
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Jemma: And if you can't express it on one level, the body's gonna express it for you a hundred percent.
Because it's just doing its best. Yeah. It's like, Hey, yeah, yeah. Look at this. Yeah. We need to get this out. Yeah. What do you think about this? Yeah,
Lisa: absolutely. It's, it's interesting because I've worked with. Some incredible people, and I've had the, the privilege of helping many clients, but I'm always very aware if something is outside of my remit.
Yes. And if I meet a client and, you know, I can absolutely work with them on nutrition and lifestyle adaptations, but if, if I feel they've, they've got so much trauma within them because they've shared to me their journey, I will always recommend that they have some. Say trauma release work. Yeah, because nothing I'm gonna do with them is gonna work until that is released.
Jemma: We are gonna take a quick break. Yeah. Beautiful.
Welcome back to Love This Food Thing podcast. We have no idea what we're gonna talk about. I love it. Spontaneity, improvisation. But, um, I'd like to share, 'cause this is really, is, is not, not targeted, but this is for anyone listening who has hormonal dysregulation, polycystic ovaries for anyone who's pre peri in it.
Past it, menopause, and particularly if you have a history of eating disorders, disordered eating, whatever that looks like, whatever symptom I'm including over exercise because man, does that dysregulate your hormones, all of it. So when I became perimenopausal, it was very difficult to separate my symptoms from maybe just feeling a bit depressed.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Jemma: And I remember looking at, uh. Uh, a list of menopause symptoms. I'm gonna say 32. Okay. I think there
Lisa: are probably many more. They're discovery more all the time.
Jemma: Yeah. Yeah. And it correlated with what it would be to be anxious or mm-hmm. What it would be to be depressed. And I knew that if I went to the doctor.
I would be given antidepressants. Mm-hmm. Which I think, I dunno if that still goes on so much. I think it probably does. It's like, oh, you're having a bit of a time. Yeah. You know, you got kids, you've got elderly parents and we'll give you an antidepressant.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Jemma: So, but I was struck by the severity of my symptoms.
So I went, I'm sharing this, not because I'm making it about me, but because of my way of example. Lisa just rolled her eyes. So I was, the fatigue was insane. Uh, the anxiety, the hot flushes, so I'm pretty fit. I couldn't climb an escalator without being out of breath at the top. I had achy toes and fingers.
My skin wasn't great. My body just kind of went and like puffed out.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Jemma: And my, my waist and my stomach felt really thick and heavy and bloated. I could go on, but these, these symptoms kind of happened overnight and it took me to about a couple of years to. Find out what worked, and I started off with alternative therapies and acupuncture and not alternative, but I can't think of another word.
I mean holistic other therapies other than allopathic medicine. And my brilliant functional doctor said, we'll start you. It's like a swimming pool. We'll start you in the shallow end, so you can take these herbs, these supplements, and then we'll move on to maybe some east estrogen cream, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Finally. I ended up taking bioidentical hormones, which for anyone who doesn't know are pretty much the same as HRT. Yeah. But they're made from soy and yam, so they're made from a food source. And I get them privately 'cause I'm able to do that financially, which is fantastic. And I, yeah. And then I have blood tests and so I have a sort of regular hormonal, um, prescription.
What I do wanna talk about, and then I'm gonna shut up for the rest of the time, is that. One of the things that happened was that just as I thought I was getting imbalance from taking my hormones, I would have the same symptoms as when I didn't have enough hormones, I kind of went over the top. Yeah. So I would just want to share that with, with women, it was a real, um.
It was a real one step forward, two steps back situation. Suddenly I'm like overwhelmed and anxious again. Oh God. It's 'cause my estrogen prescription is too high. And so it continues. Yeah, and I've, yeah, we might may talk about some gynecological stuff as well, but let's, yes. What do you think about all that, Lisa?
Whoa. Where to start? I'm sure you've heard that a lot, right?
Lisa: I've heard that so much and I think what's really important is not a one size fits all. Yeah, every single woman will have their own journey because we're all. Unique. Exactly. So, you know, as a nutritionist, I'm not allowed to recommend or suggest HRTI because they're hormones.
Mm. I obviously have my own view on what I think about them, but I think when, when we're sort of going through perimenopause, our hormones are in such a state of fluctuation. Mm. And you've got estrogen rising while progesterone's going down. Estrogen is like your diva hormone.
Speaker 4: Yeah. It's like
Lisa: whoa. Gets you out there doesn suddenly.
Yeah. Who am I? Yeah. So that's rising. That's going down where your progesterone is like ah, which is why you can't sleep at night 'cause your progesterone is tanked. Yeah, exactly. So it, it's a case of whether you take HRT or whether you do it naturally, is to find a way to balance everything. That is right for you.
How'd you do that then? So how'd you do that? Do we have enough time? So I think. Where's a good place to start? Where's a good place to start? I think, as I said, there is, you either work with a practitioner or there is so much knowledge out there. There are so many incredible books out there. I mean, one book I read years ago now, it came out years ago, it was called Cracking the Menopause.
Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
Lisa: And it's by, um, Alice Smelly and I've completely menopausal brain. Mario Laro.
Jemma: Oh, right, okay. And it is his book. They were the first kind of
Lisa: celebs, weren't they? Absolutely brilliant. And it was laugh out loud, so it was funny. Mm. But it was educational and it was inclusive. Mm. And just even just starting with something like that, what did you learn from that then?
Let's be specific. What did I, well, I learned it, it, it. Went through both their journeys on menopause.
Jemma: Okay.
Lisa: And it told you the pros of taking HRT? Yeah. If you're able to, yeah, the cons, if you're not able to take it, some people it just doesn't agree with.
Jemma: Do you know what my healer said? Yeah, she typically had like a six week menopause.
But she said the problem. The issue with HRT. Bioidentical hormones is that your ovaries are stopping working. And so all that energy and that creative energy within your ovaries actually wants to travel up to your third eye, which takes you into the stage of being like the wise woman.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jemma: And when you are taking hormones in the way that I do, despite them being food based, I'm interrupting that process. See, I, I'm worried about it, by the way.
Lisa: Yeah. I don't actually agree with that. Okay, fair enough. Because I think that. If you go back to the, the, the wise women. Absolutely. You know, you reach menopause, you were, you were the wise women.
Mm-hmm. First of all, women going through the menopause these days are doing so much more. Some of them have young children. Mm-hmm. They're carers for their parents. Mm-hmm. It's a very, very different time, and their cortisol levels are probably higher, way higher because of all the stress they're dealing with
Jemma: and just being here in 2025.
Exactly,
Lisa: yeah. You can't walk out, you can't even wake up or walk out the house without your cortisol potentially. Oh my goodness. Rising because it's. Everything is stress is inevitable.
Jemma: Yeah.
Lisa: But it's how we on the whole choose to respond to stress.
Jemma: Yes.
Lisa: These, I'm talking about the little stresses. I'm not talking about the life changing.
Jemma: Yeah. I know that
Lisa: come and slap you around the face, but you know the stresses. It's like, don't sweat the small stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That's if, if we're able to learn that. We, it will, it will benefit us. But with regards to going back to what you said about HRT is there is so much research out there about what happens to the body when estrogen is reduced.
Right.
Jemma: Let's talk about
Lisa: that. Yeah.
Jemma: Because you'll be able to say it in a way that I can't.
Lisa: Yeah. What happens there are estrogen receptors on every single cell of the body. So when estrogen declines,
Speaker 4: mm.
Lisa: They are, there's, um, more prevalence of cardiovascular disease there. It, I don't think it's any coincidence that more women, I think it's, I think, and this don't quote me, but I think it's three in one women get Alzheimer's disease.
Jemma: One in three.
Lisa: One in three. That's the one. I'm one in three. Yeah. Yeah. One in Wow. Yeah, because, because I of estrogen levels. I'm not saying it's only because of estrogen. No,
Jemma: no.
Lisa: You know, Alzheimer's is also known as type three diabetes. It's the brains. Loses its ability to process glucose. Um, there's more metabolic disorder about, you know, the, how we produce our energy and how we break everything down.
Jemma: Right?
Lisa: Osteoporosis.
Jemma: Yeah.
Lisa: Bone fracture. This is all estrogen. Reduced estrogen, isn't it? It's E The thing is, everything is a potential. Yes, everything is a potential, but the research is absolutely suggesting that lack of estrogen and when it drops, there's more significant dis-ease.
Jemma: What happens with too much estrogen, I'm gonna go through do too much and not enough with all
Lisa: the hormones.
Well too, I think, again, sort of when you go on, we spoke about the diva, didn't we? Yeah. So when you go on, for example. I can, I'll refer to myself because I had a hysterectomy. Mm. I didn't need progesterone. Okay. So if you go, if, let's go from baseline. You don't have a hysterectomy. You've got all your organs.
If you go on HRT, you will be prescribed estrogen and progesterone
Jemma: and maybe testosterone. Maybe testosterone. We're gonna talk about that in a minute. You have
Lisa: to get that privately because doctor, they don't automatically do that, which is. Yeah. And very annoying. Yes. I think it's actually utterly ridiculous.
I know. Utterly ridiculous. And
Jemma: DHEA, we need to talk about that. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Too much estrogen. So
Lisa: too much estrogen can just lead to sort of, you know, a. A feeling of sort of fullness. You know, breast fullness may be a bit of sort of hyped up anxiety. Mm-hmm. Again, everyone's going to, everyone's symptoms are gonna be completely different.
Mm-hmm. But progesterone is the calming one.
Jemma: Yeah.
Lisa: So even though I don't have a uterus, I do occasionally take progesterone because of the benefits of the calming and the sleep. What happens with too much progesterone? Well, a lot of people, not a lot of people. I dunno the percentage. Some people can't take progesterone.
It makes them feel way too anxious. Yes. Yes. So some women that are on HRT, if you haven't had a hysterectomy and you can't take progesterone, that means you can't take. Estrogen. Yeah. Some people use the marina coil, but that is a progestin. Mm-hmm. So it's more of a synthetic form.
Jemma: Okay.
Lisa: Whereas, uh, it's reone, which the NHS supply is micronized, so it's as close as the body produces.
Because the NHS now, the prescriptions they give are yam based.
Jemma: Oh, they are, are they? Absolutely. So that's a bioidentical
Lisa: hormone. Absolutely. It's, isn't it bioidentical? Yeah.
Jemma: Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah,
Lisa: so you can absolutely go, you know, not all surgeries have a menopause specialist there. Um, but you can absolutely go to a surgery, your, your local GP and talk to a menopause doctor.
Jemma: We are gonna talk very quickly and then we're gonna go on to testosterone. 'cause this needs to be talked about. Yeah. 'cause menopause gets spoken about in a certain way. And I went to see a gynecologist recently. Yeah. And she. Because I For dryness. Yeah. You see, I'm even saying the word dryness. Dryness. I can't just own it and say dryness.
Yeah. I have to say dryness. There are
Lisa: some alternative things you can use for dryness. A hundred percent.
Jemma: But she said to me, yeah. That no one was talking about it. Yeah. She said, you cannot believe the amount of women who actually don't know their biology or know the terms. Yeah. Who also. Just the conversation doesn't happen.
Yeah. So be there's, we're back to that chima thing, the kind of the shame and the secrecy. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's a revelation to me because I now have estrogen cream. Yeah. That I apply internally. Ave is
Lisa: a ine. There's pestra, there's creams. Oh, I dunno. Yeah. But you put
Jemma: it in a tube and Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa: The amount of women life changing that suffer from vagina dryness.
Yeah. It's unbelievable. And also,
Jemma: I had a friend who used, say, dry vagina, got dry vagina.
Lisa: The other thing is that the, the, um, the walls of the vagina, they atrophy. Yes, exactly. So, and then
Jemma: they feel like they're tearing and ripping and sex. It's painful. Is painful sex. Yeah. And can I, yes. I was also suggested, uh, oil.
Lisa: Yeah.
Jemma: I'm going to name the company's C
Lisa: buckthorn oil is also very good. Ah, for vaginal dryness. That's omega seven, I believe.
Jemma: So this must be in, there's an oil called Yes. With an exclamation mark.
Lisa: Yeah, they do a lubricant as well.
Jemma: Yes. I think I have both of them. Yeah.
Lisa: Yeah, yeah. No, you, we welcome
Jemma: to my bathroom cupboard.
Lisa: Yeah, we, but I think it's really important because there's, as you said, there's so much shame Yes. Around talk, you know, women will, you know, maybe say having a hot sweat, I'm not seeing but talking about your vagina.
Jemma: Yeah. You, you should you, it's like, oh, too much information. Yeah. And I want to share that because this is me, so I'm now 59 windows.
Stop menopause. 47. 48. So 10 years in. Yeah. Reasonably educated about it and suddenly I have this symptom, which can you believe I ignored for like two or three years. Yeah. Kept using coconut oil. Yeah. Just not enough. Yeah.
Lisa: But the other thing is what's sort of, it's the same conversation. So microbiome. Do you know microbiome?
Yes. This is our gut ecology. So we have microbiome everywhere, skin. Gut, vagina, bladder. Yeah. It's everywhere. So all those microbiomes need a different abundance, right. Your gut absolutely wants an abundance of different bacteria. Right. To thrive and to From food. From, yeah, from just, yeah, from food, ultimately.
Okay. Okay. Or from prebiotics, which is the fiber, or you take the prebiotics. Okay. But it needs an abundance for your overall health. A
Jemma: prebiotic is different from
Lisa: a probiotic. Yes. Yeah. A prebiotic is a fiber. A probiotic is the bacteria. Ah, the fiber feed the bacteria. What a brilliant Yes. Explanation.
Yeah. So it's like if you've got a grass that's green, it's green because it's been watered. The rain. The rain is the prebiotic, the grass is the probiotic. Amazing. But your vagina,
Jemma: no, I
Lisa: know. Vagina does not want an abundance of bacteria.
Jemma: No, it doesn't. So a lot of women don't use soap.
Lisa: Sorry. Go. Absolutely.
Go on. Be really mindful of what you put up your vagina cetra band. Yeah. Yeah. So your vagina doesn't want the abundance. It wants to be rich in a bacteria called lactobacilli. Yes. A lot of women that have, you know, urinary UTIs. Right, right. Or, you know, the, the thinning of the wall when the estrogen goes.
Uh, you can have sort of a vagina microbiome test, which shows what the abundance is. Can you have that on the NHS? No. Right. You have to, sadly, a lot of functional tests are private,
Jemma: but can you get a test, like a vagina microbiome test from, say there's a company called Meta Checks, probably
Lisa: I use, and then they do it for you?
Maybe. I'm not sure if they do it, but there is a company I know that does it because it's really important. That we do not have an abundance of bacteria.
Jemma: Okay. If anyone wants to know, then just DM me and I will let you know. Absolutely.
Lisa: Exactly.
Jemma: Yeah. Yeah. Or DM Lisa. Yeah. Um, okay. Oh God. So much to talk about.
So much to talk. Didn't know we were gonna talk about vagina. Um, we did too much progesterone. I just like testosterone. Uh, testosterone. So testosterone because it's, uh. Yes, because it, it, it's prescribed as so like military about it, but too much testosterone, which I took too much testosterone while we were trying to find my levels.
Yeah. Wow. That was not a great feeling. No, because that's, I selt like I'd been working on a builder's yard all day.
Lisa: Well, when you go, go back to sort of the polycystic ovaries, yeah. That's an imbalance and that's sort of your testosterone. Will go higher, so too much testosterone. You'll get the male characteristic.
Jemma: And I felt angry.
Lisa: Yeah, I
Jemma: had no tolerance.
Lisa: Some women, they tell you when they prescribe it. To put it on like your inner thigh. Yes, it's because you don't want that excess hair growth. But what's really interesting, a woman actually produces more testosterone than she does estrogen. So I find it unbelievable.
And as I said, I can't recommend or suggest hormones, but that doesn't stop me from finding it. Unbelievable that when they, um, suggest estrogen and progesterone testosterone's not part of that. Not every woman will need testosterone. Like, not every woman needs HRT. Mm. Some women sell through the menopause.
Yeah. And they decide absolutely not to take it. Um, and they're absolutely doing it naturally. And if that works for them, it's all about what works for you. And, but you don't want too much testo, you don't want too much of anything. No, you don't. It's like, you know, and you go to the, we can relate this to food.
It's all about moderation.
Jemma: And balance.
Lisa: And balance everything and then maintaining
Jemma: that balance.
Lisa: Exactly.
Jemma: Oh, I'm just gonna look at the time, what we are doing. No, we're good. We're good. We're good. 15, 15. 15. Very good. Couple more minutes before we go to a break. What do I want to talk about? Um, lack of testosterone.
My experience was that I felt. Well, you don't have that. Get up and go low libido. Low Ooh. Sailed out the window. Yeah. Mental clarity. Yeah. Yeah. None, none of it. It's, it's got that brain fog and that was my major complaint. Yeah. Yeah. About menopause. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brain fog. Yeah. And then you had people getting COVID on top of the menopause.
And I just had COVID about a month ago after the I,
Lisa: after
Jemma: the retreat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My God, the brain fog I know takes inches to clear. God, it's so annoying. I'm just like, I'm just losing the plot here. Yeah. I can't remember where I've just put this, whatever it is. Um, yes. And the memory loss and, and all that stuff.
Yeah. So, um,
Lisa: we just go on. No, go on. No, you go. No. 'cause I'm about to Oh, pivot off. No, what. I think actually is a really important bit of information is HRT is not a magic pill.
Jemma: Ah,
Lisa: brilliant. I think that's really, really important to say. It's part of a jigsaw puzzle.
Jemma: Yes. And it's not to be done or taken lightly.
No. And. I think what's important to share is like, do your research.
Lisa: Absolutely. And
Jemma: it's a very done thing, isn't it? Like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm taking testosterone. It's like you have to be careful with that stuff. Yeah.
Lisa: I think like with anything in life, understand what you are saying, yes or no to. And I go back to, there is an abundance of information out there, unlike there was when I had my surgical menopause.
It just wasn't out there. Let's quickly, before we go
Jemma: to the break, talk about DHEA. Yeah. I take DHEA. Yeah. Okay. Which is like a little upper. Yep. And it gives me energy. Yeah. I'd also like to say that nowadays I don't take hormones every day, or I take a very small amount, and then for the first three days of the month, I take a break.
Yeah. And I'm actually quite casual with them now. Yeah. If I don't feel like it, I don't take them.
Lisa: And I think that's a really amazing place to get to.
Jemma: Mm-hmm.
Lisa: Where you are sort of really understanding and you are in tune with what's going on in your body.
Jemma: I am.
Lisa: I think it's really important. And again, DHEA.
Mm-hmm. Sadly, I'm not allowed to recommend it. Mm-hmm. Because it's a hormone.
Jemma: Yeah.
Lisa: But the thing with DHEA and you have, you've obviously done this because you're working with a private doctor to prescribe DHEA is like the master and all the cascade of hormones, um, estrogen, testosterone, all come down.
The DHEA Ruth, DHEA is like the roof. Yeah. And then everything cascades down. If you don't know the correct pathways that your sex hormones are coming down. Yeah. You may be take, you may be taken down a pathway that's incorrect. So I would never recommend anyone takes DHEA on their own without guidance.
Jemma: Yeah, absolutely. I
Lisa: think, I think you, I think you need to sort of know. What your steroid, it's called your steroid pathway and know how it's being metabolized.
Jemma: And you can only do that with private tests.
Lisa: You can own, sadly, you can only do that with private tests. And it, it, it's, we're very behind in this
Jemma: country, aren't we?
We're so behind with our menopause of health, with our hormonal health.
Lisa: We're so behind in this country.
Jemma: We're gonna take a WHI break.
Lisa: Great.
Jemma: Welcome back to Love This Food theme podcast. I just thought of something to say before I hand it over to Lisa. Yes. If you are. Menopausal and you have a history of eating disorders. Yeah. Terrible body image as in constantly criticizing yourself. Be prepared for stuff to rock up, little demons to dance again, because that happened to me.
And your body changes and there's not a lot you can do about it, and there's not a lot you need to do about it. And then when your hormones settle, then you can start. Bringing into balance, whatever you want to bring into balance. I'm trying to be very careful with my language here, but then you can kind of, uh, I don't wanna say control, but then you can exert more influence.
Lisa: Yeah.
Jemma: But there are, uh, there's a stage of menopause where it's just happening. So I want you to know that it doesn't go on forever and sometimes you just hold onto, have to hold onto your knickers and ride it out. Yeah. Let's talk about some something that you can do if you don't have the funds. 'cause mostly healthcare, I think probably is about having the funds.
Mm-hmm. So if you can't go and have private tests and you don't have a great doctor or whatever, what can you do? On your own. We know that you can educate yourself and huge resources out there, but particularly what kind of foods would you recommend? I think, I
Lisa: think Huge question. Massive question. Yes. I think when I work with clients, the starting point for me with clients is if it's appropriate.
Um, I think it's to balance out stress levels.
Jemma: Okay. So this is very much food as medicine. This is what we are talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Because
Lisa: I like to work holistically with my clients. It's never, ever just about the food you eat.
Jemma: Never.
Lisa: It's so, I think that if you find yourself,
Jemma: it's about what your body does with that food is intention.
Exactly. Exactly. It's like, shut up, Gemma. You know,
Lisa: the, the, the food. It's, it, it's like a radio if you're sort of receiving food and the radio's sort of out of whack and off balance. Mm. It's all gonna come out crackly.
Speaker 4: Mm.
Lisa: So it's about being in a situation where. First of all, you know, I, I mentioned earlier about try if you are able to, don't sweat the small stuff.
Mm. So look into some, maybe for you, some mindfulness. Mm-hmm. Techniques. Mm-hmm. Like breathing. Mm. Or even going out for a walk. Yeah. Or garing, gargling. Gargling, gargling. Talk to me more about gargling. Gargling. So what this does, we have the vagus nerve, right? The vagus nerve goes from the base of the skull all the way down.
Your digestive system, and it's like a two way, it's a highway and it goes both ways. And when you activate the vagus nerve, it activates the parasympathetic nervous system. Mm-hmm. Which is your rest and digest.
Jemma: Yeah.
Lisa: And I'm, I'm talking very simplistically here. It's good. Exactly. So I can still follow.
Great. So if you want to sort of, if you find that you are getting slightly more anxious and you are more agitated and you are getting angry. Gargling, it activates the vagus nerve and you gargling with just water gargling, gargle. After you salt water gargle off, you brush your teeth. You know, sometimes it's all about small sustainable changes.
How long do you have to gargle for to activate the ne vagus nerve? Gargle for a minute. A couple of times a day. Wow, that's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. 'cause sing in the shower.
Jemma: Hum. Does humming activate the vagus nerve? Yeah, absolutely. Ah, sing in the shower because you are Mm. And
Lisa: you can put it in your nose.
Anything that, uh, that does that, ah, the resonance. Yeah. So it's the resonance. So all that's why singers look so fantastic. Yeah. It's all about that. It's all about finding these little things that are gonna just bring us more into our bodies. I also oil pull. Yeah. With coconut oil. I've done it for years for my teeth health.
Jemma: Does that help?
Lisa: Uh, would it, I'm not sure if that activates the vagus nerve, but it, it could do. Okay. I'm not, because it's that sort of more mouth, it's great exercise for your mouth. Yes, but, uh, is what you need to activate the vagus nerve or, you know, anything that's gonna sort of increase oxytocin, which is your happy hormone and your love hormone.
You know, if you, if you are fortunate enough to have a community, being with friends, being with loved ones, anything like this. Um, A pet. A pet, yeah. Cold water exposures, you know, so when you wash your face in the morning. Do some cold water, do some hot water, right? All of these activate, so I think that's a really good place to start.
So we bring down any potential stress response, because then when you eat the foods, your body will be more receptive and ready to receive them
Jemma: and to use the food in the way it wants to rather than it has to. Exactly. What about. Breathing exercises or breathing. What about,
Lisa: so breathing. I think that, yeah.
What's your favorite? So I think 3, 4, 5 is my favorite. Mm-hmm. You breathe in through the nose for three, you hold for four, and you breathe out for five. The longer out breath activates the diaphragm.
Jemma: It's all about the exhale, isn't it? It's
Lisa: all about the exhale and activating the diaphragm. Puts you in rest and digest, you want to do the nasal breathing because it's deeper breathing.
Mouth breathing is shallow breathing, so you
Jemma: wanna inhale through your nose and exhale through your nose, or exhale through your mouth,
Lisa: exhale through your nose.
Jemma: Ah, interesting.
Lisa: So it's all, it's all through your nose. These are just my little, my little tricks. There are so many more out there that if I find that I'm in that stage of everything's just going a bit faster.
Yeah. And I just need to. Come back to myself. Yeah. For me, the breathing works for anyone else. You know, there are so many different, you know, just closing your eyes and just repeating a, A mantra. A mantra, yeah. Yeah. And anything everyone's gonna have, I call them a little toolbox. Yes. So whatever you put in your toolbox, that's gonna help you in those times of when you are more activated.
Okay.
Jemma: Okay.
Lisa: So I think that's a place that I usually start with clients and I go through the importance and sort of give them more education. Then when it comes to food, mm. Again, it's all about small sustainable changes. So if you are, um, current way of eating is more sort of white foods. Mm-hmm. So when I say white foods, I'm talking about the more processed foods.
Yeah, yeah. Gradually. Change what you do. Add some color, add some color, you know, don't. Make this massive plan, right? I'm gonna do this. I'm never doing that again. 'cause that's ultimately was I, I've done it and I, I do it all the time. Set myself up for failure, literally all the time. You know, if you are currently drinking one glass of water.
Increase it to two and gradually because we need to be hydrated.
Jemma: And d does dehydration play a, a large part in hormonal dysregulation? Is it being researched Well, it, I
Lisa: think it will play a large part in how your body is reacting and, uh. Just feeling shriveled up inside. Right. None. Feeling like a, we don't want that.
We don't want to feel like a, we've done the dryness. Exactly. So we need, we need to lubricate our bodies. Lubrication. Lubrication. Um, so I think, you know, just start very slowly and then, you know, add lots of. We spoke very, very briefly about the microbiome. Yes. And yeah, the fact that we need an abundance of bacteria.
All those different colored fruits and vegetables feed the different microbes and fermented foods and fermented foods and srt. Sour crab. It's easy.
Jemma: It's cabbage and salt.
Lisa: Exactly. It's easy to make yourself, so we
Jemma: can absolutely do things like that, which is why it's in all the food cultures, it's why you have lime to cut through protein and Exactly.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So,
Lisa: and then obviously I am a really, really big believer in protein with every meal or snack. If you're having an apple, have. A few nuts because protein is satiating. It balances blood sugars, it makes its digestive enzymes. We need digestive enzymes to break down all our food.
Enzymes are the breakdown of protein. Right? Hemoglobin that carries, yeah. Red blood cell globin is protein. Ah, I mean, we, we, we need, and there's so many more things that we, we need. Protein.
Jemma: Oh, protein. How much protein's? A whole conversation in itself. Massive. We might have to do one about protein. Yeah.
Lisa: Protein is a,
Jemma: uh, which is if you eat meat and you eat fish, it's easier to get hold of. How much protein, uh, everyone's different. Everyone's average, different protein that you need per day. 120 grams. Well,
Lisa: what does that look like? It's, well, you know, if you go by sort of the recommended daily allowance, I think it's 0.8.
Grams for per kilogram of body weight. Whereas I personally, and it's just me, this is what I think. Mm-hmm. I think you need at least 30 grams of protein with every meal.
Jemma: So let's, let's break that down. So how would you,
Lisa: how do you do that in your diet? So, in my diet, I mean, I am fortunate. I'm a lover of I love protein, right?
So, you know, you've got. There's pro, obviously you've got your plant bra protein, which are your, your beans, your legumes, your nuts, your seeds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your tofu. Yeah, your Tempe. You've got all of that. And then obviously you've got your animal protein. Mm-hmm. Um, so a palm and a half. MM is about 25 grams to 30 grams of protein.
Jemma: Okay. So if you can fit a block of tofu or fish or, yeah, but it's say
Lisa: say, just let's just talk chicken. Let's talk chicken only because I'm a lover of chicken. The dog loves chicken. I don't, yeah. Who? Who? Yeah. A lot of people don't mind chicken, so excuse the people I don't eat who don't like chicken, don't eat.
So sometimes I wish
Jemma: I eat chicken, but I don't. Anyway. I think two
Lisa: eggs is about 10 grams of protein. Oh, okay. So you could. Have some eggs and then you could add some seeds. You could add some nuts. Mm. You could, you have to think about it. Yeah. But if you are not a lover of protein, again, start slowly. So protein powder, you could absolutely add protein powder to a smoothie.
Right? Or to your breakfast cereal or to not cereal. You know what, whatever your breakfast is or coffee, whatever it is exactly. But you know, if you are not having, if your first meal of the day currently is oats. With I, I dunno. Banana. Banana, yeah. Or sugar or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. Gradually add the protein.
It's, I think, I think the most important thing is about creating a way of life and a way of eating. And we can only do that by building up slowly.
Jemma: Yes. And one of the things, takeaways for me on the retreat was protein. So I have green, I have a teaspoon of protein powder with a green tea. Yeah. Easy. Great.
Lisa: Exactly. Makes a bit of water so it's lumpy. Exactly. You can, you know, just gradually. So I think protein is really important. I think the, does that balance your hormones then? Absolutely. Right. And I think, uh, fats yeah. Like your, your Omega-3 fats are really, really important. And your avocados. And your olive oil.
And your nuts. And your seeds. Seeds, yeah. Yeah. All our cells, the outside, they're all made of fat. Yeah. Our hormones. Come from. There's a thing, there's a char called the steroid pathway, which are a sex woman. Cholesterol is the top of that, right? Everything comes down from cholesterol Fact. Yeah. You know, fat got a really, really, really bad name and everyone started avoiding fat.
Yes. The processed fats. Yep. Not good for you. Margarine, hydrogenated oils doesn't serve you what I like to say in the long term.
Jemma: Right, right, right.
Lisa: Um, so I think fats are really important. Protein. I think vegetables are really important. Yeah. A, a variety of different colored vegetables. And we want the complex carbohydrates rather than the simple carbohydrates.
Because what the complex carbohydrates do, let's think of brown rice, sweet potato, for example. They're complex carbs. Mm. They are going to balance our blood sugars. Mm. And make us feel fuller for longer. Whereas the simple carbs, let's think white rice. White flour, white bread. Mm are gonna spike our blood sugars and then bring us down very, very quickly.
And I think, so that's a very small yes. View on foods,
Jemma: and I think there is a thank you for all of that. Yeah. I think there is a shift. We're coming to the end now, but there is a shift of perception and we all have these moments where you stop eating for your, let's call it an emotional profile, and you start.
Feeling a bit more compassion for your body. Yeah. And responsibility and love and think actually, how can I feed my body? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's really different.
Lisa: Absolutely. And
Jemma: that helps you make different decisions. Yeah. Because then you can override the, but I just want this, this, and this, and this and this.
Yeah. And it's like, well, yeah, maybe you do, but you know that in half an hour's time Yeah. You're gonna feel on the floor, particularly with, uh, hormonal stuff going on. Yeah. Um, and sometimes you can't override it, and that's fine. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But there's a, there's a, there's a, a new conversation that you can have with your body in menopause, and it's, and I always, I think that menopause is a, a such a creative time.
And we we're, we. We are scared that it's the end of stuff. It's like another adolescence, isn't it? Yeah. It's like what you Absolutely. What are you gonna do with your life now? What events are you gonna have? You, you've got this, all this experience, um, and you don't have to worry about this and this and this anymore, so Wow.
Your life is gonna open up in a new
Lisa: way. Yeah. I also think it's like, excuse me, I, I won't swear, but it, you can, it's like that time in your life where you don't have to give an F anymore. No, it's like you've done it, you've been there. Yeah. You've seen it. Yeah. And it's like you don't have to, some people you may pretend to be something else.
It's like, let it go.
Jemma: Let it go. And if you are the person that goes to bed at nine o'clock and listens to prerecorded shipping forecasts
Lisa: Yeah. Might be me,
Speaker 3: then, then yeah.
Lisa: Then that's okay. Yeah. Just, you know, it's a, it's a time of sort of hopefully becoming. Just accepting of who you are. And it's not the end, as you've just said.
It can be the beginning of so much for so many people. Oh. I think it's
Jemma: another big door. And if you have the Yes. And everyone's different, aren't they? And everyone has different, um, domestic situations. Yeah, absolutely. And households going on, but it's a huge opportunity. I'm just gonna check the time.
Okay. We've come to the end. I feel like you might come back and talk more about this. I do love
Lisa: to come
Jemma: back and talk more. I've loved it. It's been great being with you. Me too. If you were going to an island, any kind of island, any kind of climate, you have a store, cupboard, olive, olive oil, seasons, et cetera, what five favorite foods would you take with you?
Oh, five.
Lisa: Okay. So avocado? Mm-hmm Would definitely be, that would be my number one. Okay. Um, some walnuts. Uhhuh would be number two. Okay. I think I'd have to have some chicken in there. Yeah. As well. Of course, olive oil,
Jemma: Uhhuh.
Lisa: And Oh gosh, no, that's
Jemma: in your store. Cupboards. Oh, that's all. That's already there.
Okay. Yeah. I'm providing
Lisa: even better. So I've got two more. So I've got avocados, I've got walnuts, chicken. I've walnuts, chicken. I think I may have to have, I do love cauliflower. Okay. And I also would need a dark chocolate. Nice. What kind of percentage? Oh, 70% get you. Yeah. I love dark chocolate. Yeah, me too.
Jemma: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa, thank you so much. It's a pleasure coming on. Love this Food thing podcast. I've loved it. Thank you for having me. Oh, I'll see you again. Bye bye. If you'd like to learn more about the mission we're on today and who we help, simply head to love this food thing.com to see all the details.